The Good Used Car Salesman

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 08/19/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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People rip on me for always telling stories where used car sellers do bad things. But I can tell you of one who was my hero. And he didn't sell a car to anyone I know.

A client of mine bought a used diesel Suburban from a small car lot. It was sold As-Is. She took it for a test drive and it seemed fine. The salesman also told her it was a "one-owner" vehicle. A few days after the purchase, the engine exploded. She had it towed to a shop she trusted and the mechanic called her with the news. "The crankcase was filled with something heavy - like gear lube. That is why you did not hear the rod knock which led to the engine failure." The mechanic saved some of the fluid to show her. He was a certified master mechanic and later became our star witness.

After getting nowhere with the dealer who !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , we filed suit. I rarely file suits for As-Is vehicles because of the difficulty of proving that the buyer was entitled to anything. But here, we could show that the defect in the engine had been hidden from the buyer, which created a case of misrepresentation. Misrepresentation is a common law cause of action, related to fraud, where a party to a contract conceals or withholds information which the other party has a right to know. Whole books have been written on it but that one-sentence definition will work for these purposes.

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Keeping in mind that As-Is doesn't shield the seller from everything, we argued that the seller had known of the engine knock and had masked it with the heavy weight oil. A certified title history also showed the vehicle's FIVE (5) previous owners.

In the meantime, my client got the engine fixed. She was seeking reimbursement of the engine repair and her towing bill.

The defendant refused to pay a penny and his attorney kept insisting that the case would be thrown out because of the As-Is disclaimer. After a contentious hearing where my opponent also tried to say that the Uniform Commercial Code applied only between businesses (If that was true, the "As-Is" disclaimers would be ineffective as to consumers, Nimrod ) the judge denied the request to dismiss the case. A jury would decide.

We went to trial. During jury selection, attorneys often ask prospective jurors what they do for a living. One man in the back row told me he sold used cars for a living. This brought snickers from the court room because the judge had told the jury pool that the case involved the sale of a used car. Rather than kick him off the jury, I asked him who he worked for. He named a large dealer right down the road from the defendant. I asked him if he agreed with the statement, "There are good used car salesmen and there are bad used car salesmen." He said he agreed with the statement.

I then asked him: "Which are you?"

"I am a good used car salesmen." I watched how he said it and it seemed to me that he was the kind of guy who took pride in his profession and would enjoy the opportunity to figuratively slap a salesman who was giving him a bad name. I left him on the jury. A civil jury in a case like this only has six jurors deliberate so it was a gamble. If I was right it could pay huge dividends. If I was wrong, that one juror could do a lot of damage to my case.

After several days of testimony – I can't even begin to reconstruct how this simple trial got so convoluted – the jury went back to deliberate. They returned and said they had a verdict. The judge asked the foreperson to stand. The used car salesman stood. "We find for the Plaintiff. In the amount [for which she was asking]." The jury gave my client 100 cents on the dollar – the engine repair and the towing. And I was right about the salesman. We do not know what happened in the jury room and I didn't get to speak with the jurors afterward. But there is a good chance that the used car salesman asked to be foreman of the jury. He was certainly influential, being one of six people who decided in my client's favor.

The defendant tried a few shady things in an attempt to not pay the judgment. Overnight, he changed the name of the car lot and his attorney told me that the defendant "doesn't exist anymore." I pointed out that the dealership was still there when I drove by it on the way to court. The attorney told me to go back and look at the cars on the lot: they now had stickers on them saying they were owned by a new entity.

I don't know where people come up with this stuff but suffice it to say that's not how it works. The defendant filed a few more silly motions but eventually agreed to pay.

And there is a lesson in here: If you are selling a car As-Is (and this applies to individuals as well as dealers) you can't actively hide defects from the buyer and expect to always get away with it. And, one of my heroes is a used car salesman.

Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! both published by Chicago Review Press. Follow him on Twitter while Twitter is still kind of cool. Twitter : !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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zeontestpilot > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 13:23

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Bravo! I liked the happy ending!

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SteveLehto > zeontestpilot 08/19/2014 at 13:27

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Thanks. And I always try to make these a learning experience too.

I Started Something > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 13:43

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Between your articles and the Car Buying articles by Tom, I feel so much more knowledgeable about what to look for when car shopping! This one did have a nice ending for your client - would have only been better if the judge had gone back and slapped the dealer with additional penalties for trying to get out of paying!

SteveLehto > I Started Something 08/19/2014 at 13:49

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Thanks for the kind note. I write these things up and always wonder if anyone will enjoy them (I read the rough drafts to my dogs but I suspect they'd claim to like anything I write just to get me to shut up).

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 14:38

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I had a used car dealer hide a slashed tire on the back of a Jeep Liberty on me once. I found out the next day after we brought it home that it had a big gash in the bottom part. Thankfully he replaced the tire without much fuss. Basically, when I looked at the tire, he pulled the cloth spare tire off almost all the way, but covered just the part that was cut.

When I called back (after the cover ripped off in the car wash and we saw the gash) he said there's no way it was like that when they put the cover on it! My response was, "So you expect me to believe somebody lifted up the spare tire cover just to slash the tire and then put it back down like nothing happened? And it happened at your dealership? Because it was locked in my garage the whole time it's been with us, never unattended"

Tire replaced, lesson learned.

SteveLehto > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/19/2014 at 14:44

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Amazing. I have heard all kinds of things over the years. Remember back when there were idiot lights which were not behind the clear lenses on the dash? I'm trying to remember the make/model but I had a client who bought a car and one day she rubbed the check engine light on the dash and black ink came off on her thumb. Rather than fix whatever the problem was, someone had taken a Magic Marker and blacked out the light. Problem solved!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 14:50

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oh man that's so bad.

This was actually the tip of the iceberg on this Jeep. And they fixed a few things for us and put us through the ringer. The tire was the easiest fix.

On the test drive, we noticed the back left window wouldn't finish going up (it was about 2-3 inches down). It's Michigan. In January. There's snow on the ground and it's 25 degrees out. Did you think we wouldn't notice that? They fixed it before accepting delivery. Another window broke the following week. Tried to charge us 600 bucks for repair. My wife was less than pleased and in front of 4 people about to sign on used cars she went on a rant and 2 people walked before they gave her a new window/window motor for free. (yes this was in metro-detroit)

The promised dent fix on the back of the Jeep was interesting too, they shopped it out to a random dent guy instead of their own body shop. took about 3 weeks and had to argue with them about giving us a rental because they kept it over night.

Eventually it was all handled, the AC didn't work right but I don't blame them for that, couldn't test it in January. And they only had it on the lot a month so they probably just didn't know.

SteveLehto > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/19/2014 at 15:09

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One of the cardinal rules in buying a used car is to make them fix things before you sign anything. Otherwise, you have to go through what you went through. (This applies to the things you NOTICE of course.)

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 15:11

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Yep. Just like the lesson of "always see the WHOLE spare tire" was learned.

This one was learned too.

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 15:52

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Always have a non-certified used car inspected by a competent mechanic...BEFORE YOU BUY IT.

SteveLehto > UncleWalty 08/19/2014 at 15:55

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I agree. I have written about this before.

Eric. > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/19/2014 at 15:57

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You sound like a Liberty owner I know. They've had to fix the rear windows multiple times, and they don't even use them anymore. The parts still break and cause the window to fall down, without use.

sklooner > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:02

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hopefully legal costs were paid as well

melikecars > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:03

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My CPO E60 had the wrong wheels/tires on it, after months of trying to get it fixed I finally escalated to BMW USA and got a $1k check. Total PITA.

deekster_caddy > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:09

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I enjoy them but don't always have anything to comment. This was a particularly good story!

MonkeePuzzle > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:10

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bought a lemon, turned out check engine light bulb had been disabled. couldn't prove it though as I, the home mechanic, was the one who found this issue and corrected it.

fought for an age, eventually got back the costs of bringing the car up to pass Colorado emissions requirements, something that apparently all cars sold by a dealer (even as-is) have to be able to do unless clearly stated that it will not pass.

met some truly supportive people in the world of the DMV, not everyone hates their job there.

SteveLehto > sklooner 08/19/2014 at 16:15

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Yes they were. That is a whole other matter which would take some explaining but otherwise, this case would not have been worth pursuing.

SteveLehto > deekster_caddy 08/19/2014 at 16:16

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Thanks! Just clicking on the star to indicate you recommend it helps too.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Eric. 08/19/2014 at 16:16

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they are supposed to replace the window itself. Jeep eventually did a recall on them...after everyone had fixed them themselves (Oh we'll reimburse you! Yeah I did it 9 months ago, I don't have the receipt- you lose).

But they built the new window motor, and it connected to the glass differently, so you had to replace the glass too. Which we did. on all 4 windows, thankfully only paid for 2.

guppysb > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:17

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You Sir, are providing a great service to everyone that reads this site. I always thought of myself as an informed buyer, but after reading your articles, I know I have plenty more to learn. So, thanks for all the great info!

Schep9d > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:17

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I have pulled a gauge cluster out of a car with electrical tape over the check engine light. Super shady.

SteveLehto > MonkeePuzzle 08/19/2014 at 16:17

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I mentioned elsewhere that a client of mine bought a car where someone had taken a Magic Marker and blacked out the Check Engine idiot light. Presumably it was easier and cheaper to do that than fix the engine.

SteveLehto > guppysb 08/19/2014 at 16:18

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Thanks! I have learned a lot from doing this for all these years.

SteveLehto > Schep9d 08/19/2014 at 16:19

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The problem is that it is impossible to prove WHO installed the tape.

thisisamazonman > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:21

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Ground clearance! Good approach angles!

*dies*

MonkeePuzzle > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:21

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mine was present, but loosened so as not to function. I was dumb, I know better now obviously, but it should have come on then gone off. me dumb, but still, super shady.

actually, they tried the tactic you mentioned, I was their last car sale, when they promptly stopped being "so and so's car sales" and became "so and so's shipping" and claimed they weren't the same people.

SteveLehto > thisisamazonman 08/19/2014 at 16:24

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There was so much to love. Look at the wheels!

HammerheadFistpunch > thisisamazonman 08/19/2014 at 16:26

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back when trucks were trucks. Did you know you have to option a 4x4 suburban with the Tow package to even get a low range transfer case?

SteveLehto > MonkeePuzzle 08/19/2014 at 16:26

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In Michigan, dealers have to be bonded. Changing names (or entities or whatever) won't get rid of that bond hanging out there. That means a winning litigant can always hope to recover the 1st $10K of a judgment.

Arrivederci > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:26

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That's the lazy way out. Just unscrew the bulb! :D

thisisamazonman > HammerheadFistpunch 08/19/2014 at 16:27

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Yes. And it makes me sad. Also sad: the F-150 is not available with a low range transfer case anymore, not until you order at leas the Lariat trim. The most common trim, the XLT, can't even special order it.

MonkeePuzzle > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:28

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in talking to the folks who handled my case, I was one of 6 or 7 other people they screwed, apparently dumping the last of their inventory before changing businesses, and a bond of some sort was the reason we all got some money.

I didn't get any compensation for time or hassle, but I did get every cent for which I could show a receipt for work done to get the car up to pass emissions. So the system works.

SteveLehto > Arrivederci 08/19/2014 at 16:30

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It also wasted electricity!

golfball > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:33

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It's pretty incredible that they would go through a jury trial and all that trouble to save what? $5000?

SteveLehto > golfball 08/19/2014 at 16:41

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That is the amount of damages. They also had to pay attorney fees and courts costs. Some people refuse to believe they can lose.

Remember dialing "popcorn" for the time? > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 16:45

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Do your dogs like brown, manual, diesel, station wagons?

SteveLehto > Remember dialing "popcorn" for the time? 08/19/2014 at 16:49

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They love going for rides in my Explorer, but I can tell you they hate anything with a turbo (I think the turbos whistle at a frequency that bothers them?)

HammerheadFistpunch > golfball 08/19/2014 at 16:52

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Face....to save Face.

Ryoku > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 17:00

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If there was ever a "hipster" in the used car dealer buis, its the one that actually sells you a half-way decent car at a half-way decent price.

Built BMW Tough > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 17:00

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I have a customer who had been waiting for the perfect used X5; it popped up, and we arranged for a deal between him and the selling dealer. I was to be paid a broker fee, standard procedure. Less than a week after taking delivery, the X5 was running horribly, shaking and throwing up CELs like there was no tomorrow.

The dealership stood by their "AS-IS" statement. They were admittedly a high-end franchise, but they couldn't be bothered by a non-local customer. I spoke to the salesman, the general manager, and I got nothing. If I sell a car from my inventory, I will do my best to make sure the customer is happy and is taken care of. This dealer, it seems, cared not about their reputation like they did their bottom line.

After all was said and done, I had my bookkeeper write out a check to a local BMW indy, because I wanted my customer to come back to us. It wasn't that bad, just a coil pack failure. I ate the cost because I don't want a shitty dealership's service to reflect poorly on mine.

pdoten > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 17:50

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I had that happen with electrical tape on a used car I bought. The seller disclosed a lot (previously a rental car, had some accident damage) but forgot to mention that one!

SteveLehto > pdoten 08/19/2014 at 17:51

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Funny how that works!

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 18:16

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Electrical tape over the ABS light- slightly less sketchy, but still not great. Something my brother's Astro had for a while.

Frenchlicker > Eric. 08/19/2014 at 20:01

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Ours are always our front windows. The recall kind of fixed one.

Ad_absurdum_per_aspera > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 20:48

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> Some people refuse to believe they can lose.

It may have just been the way some people habitually relate to the world. As my wife puts it when encountering one of those: "People who lie when the truth would do."

Glad to hear about the good guys winning one...

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 08/19/2014 at 22:02

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Another great story steve!! P.S. We got the Dart all fixed, we got about 2/3 goodwill money and my buddy ponied up the rest!

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 08/19/2014 at 22:03

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fantastic! There is hope sometimes. Thanks for the note.

GhostZ > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 01:48

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You have, hands down, some of the most informative posts here. Just wanted to say that. Absolutely brilliant stuff.

SteveLehto > GhostZ 08/20/2014 at 02:32

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Wow. Thanks!

Sean > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 06:00

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You can't pre question or interrogate a prospective jury member in Australia and then choose whether you want him or not. You get called for jury duty via the electoral rolls and assuming you don't qualify for an automatic exemption (for about 2 dozen official reasons) you turn up on the nominated Monday. The basic call up is 1000 people of which about 600 will turn up.

You then sit around for about 2 hours while they call the attendance (just like in school) and then they call the jurors in lots of 40 at a time by selecting names from a barrel. Off you all go to the court room. The defence and prosecution come in, take their places and the selection begins.

This consists of names being drawn from another (smaller) barrel, and each side gets 3 challenges without reason. Once those are used up, that's it. Once they get 12 jurors the leftovers go back to the central pool and wait to see if their name gets called for another selection of 40. Take a good book to read as it's really really boring sitting around watching crappy midday TV on a central television which has the sound turned down and you can't change the channel..!

This goes on until all court cases due to start that day are filled up with juries which takes until about noon. Anyone left over is told to go home and have the afternoon off but to return on Wednesday. (Jury duty is a weekly commitment minimum) where you go through the whole process described above again. If you don't get chosen you're off the hook for the rest of the week as most trials go for a standard 3 days.

Trials can take longer of course and go for weeks or months. Tough luck for you if so because you're on that jury until the bitter end. Good thing though is that you do get paid for your attendance (about $15.00 a day to cover parking and/or bus fare) and the food at the cafeteria is pretty damm good actually. (I've done it twice and on the second trial we delayed our decision - which we'd made in about 10 minutes- until after lunch, just because: free yummy lunch.) You are also allowed to claim your lost wages off the justice department and you absolutely CAN NOT BE FIRED for being on jury duty, regardless of the length of trial. If you do get sacked, then your employer will be the next guy to have an audience with the judge!

Overall I found jury duty to be a fun experience, and since I'm a high school teacher where teaching basic law is part of my syllabus, I used the whole experience as a professional learning chance and still use the court cases and experience in my classes over 10 years down the track.

SteveLehto > Sean 08/20/2014 at 06:30

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If you can't question the jurors, how do you know which ones to strike? In the US (using a system we brought over the England) the amount of questioning varies depending on the judge. Some will allow you to try your case during jury selection ("If the facts show that this man shot and killed his wife, would you have a problem finding him guilty of first degree murder?") and others will only let you ask the basics, like occupation and residence and generic matters which aren't loaded.

TStoff1 > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 07:25

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Another excellent article. People come to attorneys for help and this type of case doesn't make you a lot of money and many lawyers would not consider this type of case. Yet we are the scumbags. Excellent work.

SteveLehto > TStoff1 08/20/2014 at 07:36

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Thanks for the note. Most people have no idea how many cases attorneys take for little or no pay simply because we know that the person asking for help won't get any if we turn them away.

CheesePatrol > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 08:35

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I'm curious - do people have more issues with those shady looking "buy here, pay here" lots than with big name dealers??

SteveLehto > CheesePatrol 08/20/2014 at 08:50

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Yes. And I suspect that part of the reason is that the bigger "name" dealerships find a little more value in treating customers well. A scummy salesman can make a quick buck today off someone who will never return. The big dealer - if they're doing it right - knows that the customer who returns is what makes them successful in the long run.

TerraTech > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 08:51

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You say the defendant pulled a few silly tricks like changing the name and such... so how long did it take after the ruling to get the money? I mean after changing the name, did you have to threaten to sue again or what? How did you make him pay if he went to such lengths after taking him to court to avoid it ?

SteveLehto > TerraTech 08/20/2014 at 08:56

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Most of the things they did (or threatened to do) were bluster. I.E., they were just trying to better their position by bluffing. Changing the name of the dealership wouldn't have helped any since the assets were all still there (and if they weren't, it would have been a fraudulent transfer anyway). We didn't get any more for going through the post-trial stuff; you never do. Litigation is always slow and wasteful to some degree.

Nerd-Vol > CheesePatrol 08/20/2014 at 08:56

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I would assume so. The buy-here pay here lots are generally crappy cars that they get from the auction house. Many of the cars have been sold 2-3 times over. It's a recipe for headaches.

I probably did it > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 09:01

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Had a used car lot put tape over an ABS light. Called them out on that and they fixed it.

Had a private party get a car nice and hot before I got there (they actually weren't there when I got there, they had been out driving it) to hide a rod knock that only happened when the car was cold.

I hate used cars!

Kylemaro > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 10:25

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steve could i ask you a quaestion concerning vehichle ownership? in a legal sense anyways

Sean > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 10:43

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You don't get to question them at all. Not even a little bit.

You base your challenge purely on impression and your gut feeling. This way the jury you get is (very likely) not going to be weighted to either side and thus will not favour an outcome beyond anything that you the barristers for the prosecution and defence can present in the court case. The accused, their Barrister and the Prosecution can all state a challenge to oppose a potential juror but as I said, each side only gets 3 each.

Now tell me that isn't a fairer and more importantly, impartial system?

In the two times I've been on a jury the challenges ranged from a guy in his 40's dressed in a business suit looking very managerial, to a surfer guy who had clearly turned up just after his morning waves still literally trailing loose sand from his feet.

The challenges seemed pretty random to me and I was challenged on one occasion in the short list of 40 but was selected when I was short listed for another case starting that day. As I said, it all seems to be pretty much luck of the draw. Which to me, is a much better thing than the USA model (I've read John Grisham's The Rainmaker and seen the movie!.. :+p )

Cheers,

Sean

MrEvil > TStoff1 08/20/2014 at 11:02

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The only people that call attorneys scumbags are those that have never required their services or even so much as spoken to one and given them an opportunity to explain how things work. Once you get a lesson from an attorney you really respect what they do and how they go about doing it.

I treat lawyers that have done work for me and my family with the same reverence I treat my physician.

SteveLehto > Sean 08/20/2014 at 11:13

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So you have to do challenges based on appearance? That seems odd. What if I am suing a doctor for malpractice and the "surfer dude" is really a doctor who has been sued a dozen times because he is incompetent and decided to not dress the part? How fair would it be to leave him on the jury without anyone knowing that?

The jurors MUST be asked something. Otherwise you'd end up with friends of the parties serving, or relatives of witnesses and so on.

SteveLehto > Kylemaro 08/20/2014 at 11:14

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Email me directly at Lehto@kennon.com

Kylemaro > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 11:33

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will do thank you!

Sean > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 11:40

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Ahhh. No.

One of the first questions the clerk of the court asks the collected 40 is whether a) do any of us know anyone else in the jury short list, and b) when the accused comes, do any of us know the accused. If the answer is yes to either, then you're immediately excluded by the court itself and you go back to the central pool.

The clerk of the court will also describe the case briefly - basically just a headline, in one of mine all they said was a "deprivation of liberty" - and how long it's expected to last. (Eg, 3 days) Then they'll ask if anyone has a problem with that and if someone says yes, then the magistrate/judge will ask why/what etc and make a decision to exclude. Usually that's no because as I said earlier, there's about 20+ reasons for exemption before you even attend. These range from being connected to the legal service - cop, judge, lawyer etc, military service, doctor/nurse, being pregnant, being a mum with kids under the age of 14, being a teacher like me ( but we see it as a chance to have some time off out of class, so teachers rarely opt out!) and a whole bunch of others that appear on the back of your jury duty notice. Women seem to have more opt out excuses than men.

But otherwise, no other questions were asked by anybody on either side. Remember this is based on my direct experience of being selected for a jury on two occasions and where I was jury foreman on one occasion, having brought 3 cases to court myself for various reasons in the "small claims court" (think - judge judy level in the USA) and the "district court" level (next level up from judge judy) over the years, and teaching basic Australian law concepts to high school kids. I'm not a legal practitioner myself

Btw. The surfer dude was 18 years old if he was a day.... Blond salt encrusted hair, surf label t-shirt, shorts, flip flops, and sand. He made absolutely no effort to dress appropriately for the occasion! :+) It all went exactly to his plan I'm sure!

Cheers

Sean

SteveLehto > Sean 08/20/2014 at 11:47

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I looked this up after the last exchange and found an Aussie site that described it. There is jury questioning, it is just done by the court. Some of the courts here are the same way. The only difference is who asks the questions. Many of those questions need to be asked.

There are countless variations - I've seen a judge say she will ask the jury any question (within reason) that the attorneys ask her to but that she would do the questioning. I've also had a judge say we could only ask the most basic of questions.

AFSpecialSauce > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 13:02

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Steve, your posts are always extremely helpful and have already saved me!

I was shopping for a used Land Rover (I know, I know) and came across a dealer that was trying hard to hide problems and minimize them. There was some small things like broken door handles held together with mighty putty/gum. When I started it, it threw up a bunch of Air Suspension faults. He insisted it was probably just a fuse and they'd happily fix those after I bought it. I took your advice and asked if he would place a full suspension repair in the purchase agreement. It was the first time I've ever had a dealer actually try to get me off the lot. He told me they were closing soon (45 minutes) and asked if he could speak with his shop tech about the suspension failure and call me the next day. That was 3 weeks ago and he never did call. I obviously have not followed up. (Also this was a local BMW dealer not some hole in the wall.)

Just asking about the "purchase agreement" changed me from a mark to informed consumer. Thanks!

SteveLehto > AFSpecialSauce 08/20/2014 at 13:06

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I'm so glad to see people taking this kind of advice. We all know what would have happened if you had bought that car.

Sean > SteveLehto 08/20/2014 at 19:29

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okie then. I stand corrected. Maybe the lawyers of the court cases I've been involved in simply displayed an overall lack of curiosity, concern or interest... :+)

SteveLehto > Sean 08/20/2014 at 19:33

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I'm not disputing it. It does look like the Australian system is quite limited compared to the US.

mXxxxXm24 /O/ /O/ > I probably did it 08/20/2014 at 21:16

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Don't blame the cars!

Sean > SteveLehto 08/21/2014 at 02:23

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it appears to work ok though, and I've won all the court cases I've been involved in :+)

SteveLehto > Sean 08/21/2014 at 02:25

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I meant "limited" in how much questioning they allow during jury selection.

TStoff1 > MrEvil 08/21/2014 at 06:54

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Thank you. Reverence may be a little much, but We will take it. I have had clients who took the time to consult me prior to taking action. Amazing to hear how things went when they approached the problem correctly. The consult was well worth their time.

Mr. Evil didn't you get your doctorate? Should it not be Dr. Evil?

TStoff1 > SteveLehto 08/21/2014 at 07:00

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Your buddy from NC here. Hence my arbitration the other day. She was awarded $4,500, but originally denied on contributory negligence. $1,500 attorney fee award. Had she not pursued her bills would not get paid and the doctors would get nothing. Since we were able to negotiate reductions with the doctors she will put some in her pocket. Might cover my paralegal's time. We were the third firm she spoke with. Other two turned her down. Defense attorney made more than I did, but the client was grateful.

MrEvil > TStoff1 08/21/2014 at 09:03

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Reverence may have been a strong choice of word, but accurate. I'm also very particular about the people that provide me those types of services and hate having to find a new one.

TStoff1 > MrEvil 08/22/2014 at 07:28

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I know what you mean. I don't deal with certain legal issues and have my own attorney for wills and real estate. Having people you can trust is key. I feel his way about my mechanic, barber, bartender and a few others. Know them all by name. Everything we say is covered by bartender /client, barber/client privilege. Makes life easier.

jonny quest > SteveLehto 02/02/2015 at 12:28

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I sold Used Cars for a small dealership in Missouri for 5 yrs.We kind of where at the mercy of what cars our boss "Floor planned" which was the loan amount he told the bank each car was worth.(he fudged up so much at one time the Yugo was stretched out to be the most valuable vechicle on our lot,no shit) I never did lie or was encouraged to lie about any of the crap we had to sell,if anything I would point out the defects on one they liked to steer(no pun) them to a car that was decent.really.(Fat girls love small cars btw,lol.)My # 1 complaint looking back selling cars,was the customers that lied to ME,IE: THEIR CREDIT.You had to literally feel them out quickly or it was a waste of everyones time.YES customers lie like a Mofo.(mid 80's)

The biggest tell was called a "Lay down" esp. if they traveled from the city(40 miles away ) to respond to an ad we may have run,then quickly get on a car put a decent depo down and wait til we ran their credit(on sat sales more often then not) these we called "get me done's) 99% where liars and or required a much heftier down payment...I can go on and on..grammer Nazi's take it away..no,fuck you.

jonny quest > Nerd-Vol 02/02/2015 at 14:21

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We had the buy-here pay here on our lot.The owner brought in a "money guy" who would handle all of this.It was a flawed deal from the get-go and I hated it.When they would not pay we had to"pick up the car"and re-sell after fixing.Kind of the same customer with the rent-to own credit.

People can't handle money..FACT.. I always hated having to pick up a car when some where women with kids and no other way to go to work etc..usually the "stroke" or down payment was what we owned the car for. So, if they wrecked or whatever..

jonny quest > jonny quest 02/02/2015 at 14:24

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Nerd-vol,not an auction house..im talking 1200 sleds here..usually dealer trades..and almost always an import because they where better built back on the 80's.